L’interview de Mohamed El Erian que de nombreux lecteurs m’ont réclamé

Ci dessous l’interview de Mohamed El Erian que de nombreux lecteurs m’ont réclamé

Rien ne peut déstabiliser les marchés: qu’il s’agisse d’une mutation potentiellement plus dangereuse du coronavirus, de la victoire surprenante de la majorité des démocrates au Sénat américain ou des images d’une foule en colère prenant d’assaut le Congrès américain: le marché haussier des actions se poursuit sans se décourager .

Cependant, Mohamed El-Erian voit un risque qui pourrait causer de sérieux problèmes aux investisseurs. «L’une des histoires les plus négligées concerne ce qui arrive à la courbe des taux américaine», déclare le président du Queens ‘College de Cambridge et conseiller économique en chef d’Allianz, la société mère de PIMCO où il était PDG et co-directeur des investissements.

Dans cette conversation approfondie avec The Market / NZZ, qui a été éditée et condensée pour plus de clarté, M. El-Erian explique pourquoi des anticipations d’inflation croissantes et des rendements obligataires plus élevés pourraient mettre en danger la stabilité des marchés financiers.

Il discute également des perspectives de l’économie mondiale et explique comment il navigue dans l’environnement boursier difficile d’aujourd’hui en tant qu’investisseur.

Mes lecteurs connaissent tout ceci depuis longtemps et ils se diront qu’il n’y a rien de neuf la dedans, mais ils auront tort car ce que dit El Erian est certes su de tous les experts mais ce qui est nouveau c’est qu’il le dise et très clairement. Cela la devenir une common knowledge.

Extrait:

« Depuis que les actions sont revenues du plus bas du 23 mars, nous avons connu de nombreux records.

Il est important de reconnaître que le récit/narrative justifiant ces records a changé.

Avant la pandémie, le récit était que Trump allait gagner, que nous allions avoir des réductions d’impôts continues et que les entreprises allaient bénéficier d’une plus grande déréglementation.

Ensuite, ce discours politique a cédé la place à: Nous allons avoir un gouvernement divisé, et c’est bon pour les marchés parce que cela tient le gouvernement à l’écart.

Ensuite, le récit est redevenu: nous allons avoir une vague bleue et un stimulus massif.

Maintenant, tout tourne autour du grand redemarrage de réouverture.

Lorsque tant de récits sont utilisés pour justifier l’action des prix, cela vous indique que l’action des prix reflète complètement autre chose ».

L’autre chose qui fait monter les bourses : la printing presss

« Lorsque vous êtes un investisseur institutionnel et que vous mettez beaucoup d’argent dans un investissement, vous vous posez toujours une dernière question après avoir parcouru les fondamentaux, les évaluations et tout le reste: qui va acheter après moi? Si l’acheteur après vous est quelqu’un qui a une presse à imprimer au sous-sol, qui a la volonté de l’utiliser, ne se soucie pas de la valorisation et n’achète pas pour gagner de l’argent, c’est extrêmement rassurant »

« Il ne fait aucun doute que deux banques centrales en particulier, la Réserve fédérale et la Banque centrale européenne, vont fournir des injections de liquidités suffisantes et prévisibles, et qu’elles vont être des acheteurs en continu sans limite quant à ce qu’ils peuvent acheter et à quel prix. C’est la raison pour laquelle nous avons vu les prix passer de records en records malgré des récits complètement changeants.

Oubliez la «grande réouverture», le «Trump trade» et tous ces autres trucs. »

L’INTERVIEW

«With the exception of Asia, most countries will experience slowing economic growth, and in the case of Europe a double-dip recession.»

Dr. El-Erian, after last year’s strong recovery, stocks trade at challenging valuations. What’s your advice for investors who want to invest their money in a reasonable and prudent way in this environment?

The hardest part about this question is how to invest «in a reasonable and prudent way» because you have such an enormous disconnect between fundamentals and valuations. Most people understand why they are disconnected, and most people can see a way over a number of years where this disconnect is reduced by improving fundamentals. But the risk comes with what you do on the journey to get there.

What do you mean by that?

The global economy is going to look rather shaky, both for the fourth quarter of the last year as well as the first quarter of this year. With the exception of Asia, most countries will experience slowing economic growth, and in the case of Europe a double-dip recession. That has become clear because, once again, it is proving very difficult for countries in the West to optimize public health, normal economic activity and individual freedom at the same time. Switzerland is no different than the United States and many other Western countries. We are looking at a rough four months ahead even though we have a vaccine, the vaccine is getting deployed and it promises some sort of herd immunity down the road.

Yet, markets are looking ahead and are already celebrating the return to growth and to a more normal life. Rightly so?

Since stocks roared back from the lows of March 23, we saw many record highs. It’s important to recognize that the narrative justifying those record highs has changed. Before the pandemic, the narrative was that Trump was going to win, that we are going to have continuous tax cuts, and that companies are going to benefit from more deregulation. Then, that political narrative gave way to: We’re going to have a divided government, and that’s good for markets because it keeps the government out of the way. Next, the narrative changed again to: We’re going to have a blue wave and massive stimulus. Now, it’s all about the big reopening trade. When so many narratives are being used to justify price action, it tells you that the price action reflects something else completely.

So what’s the real reason for record high stock markets?

When you are an institutional investor and you put a lot of money in an investment, you ask yourself always one final question after you go through the fundamentals, the valuations and everything else: Who is going to buy after me? If the buyer after you is someone with a printing press in the basement, who has a willingness to use it, doesn’t care about valuation and isn’t buying to make money, that is incredibly reassuring.

Does this mean that the bull market is based solely on the central banks’ super easy monetary policy?

There was no doubt that two central banks in particular, the Federal Reserve and the European Central Bank, are going to provide ample and predictable injections of liquidity, and that they are going to be continuous buyers with no limit to how much they can buy and at what price. That is the reason why we’ve seen prices going from one record high to another despite completely changing narratives. Forget about the «great reopening», the «Trump trade» and all this other stuff.

What are the ultimate consequences of these permanent liquidity injections?

We have stumbled into very unhealthy codependences; codependences between central banks and investors, between central banks and debt issuers which are governments and companies, and between central banks and politicians. They are all in this unhealthy codependency. It’s like a bad marriage: They’ve ended up relying on each other, and they just don’t know how to get out of it. Every time the central banks have tried to get out of it, the markets were at risk of becoming disorderly. Remember: When Chairman Powell came in, he tried to reduce the support of the Fed for the markets, but then he had to do a massive U-turn in the fourth quarter of 2018. When Christine Lagarde came in at the ECB and made that comment about Italy, she had to make a U-turn within a day.

How long can this go on?

I don’t think central banks quite realize how much irresponsible risk taking is going on. In 2010, Ben Bernanke talked about the benefits, costs and risks that come with unconventional policy. He added, the longer you maintain it, the lower the benefits, the higher the costs and risks. This was ten years ago. At that time, Bernanke was thinking of unconventional policy as an economic bridge. Now, it has become a destination.

What are the implications of this change?

There is abundant evidence that the beneficial economic implications are low, and the costs include irresponsible risk taking, higher inequality, distortion of financial markets such as negative interest rates and misallocation of resources. There is abundant evidence, but no one knows how to exit. Every time, central banks even hint at exiting, the markets become disorderly.

Does that mean investors can’t actually do anything wrong, because central banks will always bail them out if the worst comes to the worst?

It depends. There are certain things that central banks clearly buy: investment grade paper and government debt. In the case of the Fed and the ECB, they even buy high-yield respectively peripheral debt. All these assets are under a strong central bank umbrella. You can stay under that umbrella, and you are fine. But investors tend to be greedy. In their mind, they have stretched the coverage of the umbrella to include other asset classes, for instance emerging market debt. But the further you go away from the umbrella, the higher the default risk – the one risk central banks cannot protect you against. It’s reasonable to continue betting on central banks. Yet, valuations are leading you to be less and less cautious – and that’s going to be the big balancing act in 2021.

There are more and more signals suggesting inflation will return this year. How would the markets react to such a scenario?

One of the most under covered stories is what’s happening to the US yield curve. It’s on a consistent move up, and that puts the Fed in a very difficult position, because if it allows the curve to continue to steepen it can undermine financial stability. If the Fed wants the yield curve to stop steeping, it has to implement yield curve control, or what they like to call yield curve targeting. But yield curve targeting is a huge step in policy. It would distort the US Treasury market completely. So keep an eye on this, because this is starting to get to dangerous levels.

This week, the yield on ten-year Treasuries rose above 1% for the first time since March. What’s behind this development?

People are starting to get more sensitive to inflation risk. We have gone through a massive move of disinflation, of downward pressures of prices. It has to do with our behavior, and I call it simply the Amazon, Google and Uber effects: Amazon allows us to disintermediate the middle person in the supply chain, and that lowers pricing power. Google makes us smarter and much more price-sensitive consumers which again limits how much we can be charged. Uber is about using existing assets like cars more efficiently, increasing supply in a way that limits price hikes.

And why could these trends change now?

The assumption has been that these forces are repeatable. But now, with new regulatory actions and other factors, it’s not clear that we will get the same disinflationary effects on the supply side. The nightmare for the Fed and the markets is that you get less disinflationary supply side effects, demand takes off and we get more inflationary demand side effects – and the market is starting to sense that.

However, the Fed recently declared overshooting inflation its new target of monetary policy. How high can interest rates rise before central bankers get nervous and intervene?

That’s hard to tell. All I know is that this Fed is very concerned that they will lose their influence on markets. The central banks want more flexibility, but the political system is going to want to give them less flexibility. For years, the Fed hasn’t been able to achieve its 2% inflation target. So why are they willing to aim even higher now? It doesn’t make sense, but it shows that they are in this paradigm that’s very difficult to exit from. The Swiss national bank has that issue too. It’s not easy to be in the periphery of an ECB. But that’s the way it is.

Just a few weeks ago, the U.S. Treasury Department classified Switzerland as a currency manipulator. Is this action justified?

I was very surprised to read that, and I didn’t quite understand why the US did this. Switzerland is just trying to manage through the monetary policy regime it is importing from the European Central Bank. It puts Switzerland in an almost impossible situation because this is not something that the Swiss National Bank has free choice in.

Does the verdict from Washington have serious consequences?

The real question is if this will be used for something else. I don’t know, but there are all sorts of things the US can put pressure on Switzerland, for example banking sector reform. The risk is less with the incoming Biden administration. The Trump administration clearly showed its willingness to weaponize tariffs and investment sanctions for non-economic reasons. I don’t know whether the Biden administration would have the same inclination to weaponize, but if we had four more years of Trump, I would be much more worried for Switzerland than I am now.

Under Trump, the conflict between the US and China has intensified significantly. Unlike a year ago, however, China is in a better economic position today than America. How will this situation evolve further in 2021?

You are looking at a marathon, and after the first few kilometers, China is clearly in the lead. China is in the lead because it doesn’t have to worry about individual freedoms. It has an ability to control people’s behavior that the West does not have. Additionally, other Asian economies like Korea and Taiwan have a sense of collective responsibility that you don’t get in the US or Europe. Here, policy makers have to worry about normal economic interactions, public health and individual freedoms. The Chinese government doesn’t have don’t have to worry about individual freedom, and solving a two-variable equation is much easier than solving a three-variable equation. So it’s not surprising that China is sprinting out in this marathon of recovery much faster.

Then again, a marathon is an endurance discipline. In the end, the winner is the one who manages his energy best. Is it possible that China will run out of breath on the way?

In this world, the trouble of going slower is you end by people dying. Then again, in the past, China was always able to use the global economy as a tailwind, and it facilitated reforms. Last year, China has not been able to use the global economy as a tailwind. For the most part of 2021, it will not be able to use it either. That means China will only be able to continue to sprint if it accelerates reforms. So as they go further into the marathon it’s going to be harder to keep the same lead. Today, people are extrapolating China’s growth in the past to predict that China will be the largest economy by 2035. I wouldn’t do that just yet.

Against this background, where do you see opportunities for investors?

Honestly, I’m really happy that I don’t manage other people’s money. That’s because I know I would go back to doing something that is very tactical in nature: I would be like a surfer on a wave, knowing that the liquidity will end at some point, but going to be on it for as long as I can. I would look around and see that many other surfers are riding the same wave, and I would start wondering what happens if we get into each other’s way or if the wave breaks. So I would be a very nervous investor.

What are you doing now when it comes to putting your money to work?

I always think of three levels of investments. In the old days, the first two were big, and the third one was small. These days, the first two are small, and the third one is big. The first level refers to the secular position, investments that I believe will work out over time. For me, technology was a secular position, and emerging markets as well. These are now fully valued. Therefore, my allocation to them has become much smaller. The second layer is what I call structural: Certain areas in the investment world that are attractive because of some market imperfection. There used to be many of these. Inflation protected bonds for example, because many people did not understand them. Now, they are gone as well.

And what about the third level?

The third level is tactical, opportunistic. Like everybody else, I have become much more opportunistic. But I’m very cautious. Think of me as an uncomfortable investor. And that’s the problem now: I don’t take as much risk as everybody else because I have a much lower risk tolerance. For instance, I don’t buy treasuries for my risk management. I stay in cash, because in Treasuries, once you go beyond three- or four-year maturities, you face the potential of higher yields and lower prices. It’s become a very different world.

Do you still find attractive investments at all?

Unless you’re under the central bank umbrella, you have to do a lot of granular analysis to make sure you have another form of resilience. I put a lot of emphasis on balance sheet resilience, on the ability to manage through a liquidity crisis. That’s really important because companies have gone on a huge borrowing spree. They have borrowed enormously and you have to go into that balance sheet to understand what’s the nature of this debt. So the granular analysis is a very granular credit analysis. That’s the first element.

What is the second element?

It’s important to understand liquidity: Understand, where people would want to go. For instance, I don’t have any particular understanding of Bitcoin. But it was clear to me that when Bitcoin was below $5.000 that this was a purely technical effect: You had a lot of people who had bought for the wrong reasons and they were all being shaken out. Then, at $19.000 I sold. I didn’t know if the rally would end, but I wasn’t comfortable anymore. Today, Bitcoin is at more than $36.000. So I got that completely wrong, but I understand why I got it wrong, and I’m willing to live with that mistake. You have to be very clear about the liquidity risk you’re willing to take and you’re not willing to take. Right now, people are taking enormous liquidity risk. They think that this wave we all surf on is going to last forever, that it won’t break at all.

In which areas do you also see risks in this regard?

High yield debt. People have a relative mindset. It’s like in this story where dad comes home and declares to his family that he just bought a dog for $30.000. Of course, the family is stunned. But he declares: «It’s one of the best deals ever, the cat was selling for $50.000». When you have a relative mindset, things get totally disconnected. Just take Greece: People are buying Greek bonds at negative yields. Why? Because they say it’s a yield pick-up relative to German bonds. Liquidity encourages a relative mindset; you start really mispricing things. Then, one day, you ask yourself a different question: Is a negative yield compensating me for credit risk in Greece? Of course, it’s not. But we never know when the relative mindset changes to an absolute mindset.

Zur Person

Mohamed El-Erian is President of Queens' College, Cambridge, the Chief Economic Adviser at Allianz and chair of Gramercy Fund Management. Before joining Allianz, he held positions as chief executive and co-chief investment officer of PIMCO and president and CEO of Harvard Management Company, the entity that manages Harvard’s endowment and related accounts. He was also a managing director at Salomon Smith Barney/Citigroup in London and spent 15 years with the International Monetary Fund in Washington, DC. Dr. El-Erian has published widely on international economic and finance topics. His 2008 best-seller, When Markets Collide, was named a book of the year by «The Economist». He is a columnist for «Bloomberg View» and a contributing editor at the «Financial Times». His newest book – The Only Game in Town: Central Banks, Instability and Avoiding the Next Collapse – is another New York Times best-seller. Dr. El-Erian has served on several boards and committees, including the U.S. Treasury Borrowing Advisory Committee, and the New York Fed’s Investor Advisory Committee on Financial Markets. Since 2007, he has chaired Microsoft’s Investment Advisory Board. He holds a master’s degree and doctorate in economics from Oxford University. He is also and chair of Gramercy Fund Management

Mohamed El-Erian is President of Queens’ College, Cambridge, the Chief Economic Adviser at Allianz and chair of Gramercy Fund Management. Before joining Allianz, he held positions as chief executive and co-chief investment officer of PIMCO and president and CEO of Harvard Management Company, the entity that manages Harvard’s endowment and related accounts. He was also a managing director at Salomon Smith Barney/Citigroup in London and spent 15 years with the International Monetary Fund in Washington, DC. Dr. El-Erian has published widely on international economic and finance topics. His 2008 best-seller, When Markets Collide, was named a book of the year by «The Economist». He is a columnist for «Bloomberg View» and a contributing editor at the «Financial Times». His newest book – The Only Game in Town: Central Banks, Instability and Avoiding the Next Collapse – is another New York Times best-seller. Dr. El-Erian has served on several boards and committees, including the U.S. Treasury Borrowing Advisory Committee, and the New York Fed’s Investor Advisory Committee on Financial Markets. Since 2007, he has chaired Microsoft’s Investment Advisory Board. He holds a master’s degree and doctorate in economics from Oxford University. He is also and chair of Gramercy Fund Management

6 réflexions sur “L’interview de Mohamed El Erian que de nombreux lecteurs m’ont réclamé

  1. Les mises en gardes des économistes du IMF du BIS et des professionnels de Wall Street sont juste ce qu’elles sont des mises en garde et des constats du dysfonctionnement total et outrancier du système qui est devenu exagérément irréparable.

    Le système ne peut plus être ni soutenu à ce rythme ni réparé .

    C’est pourquoi la seule solution envisagée est de changer de système économique et financier
    le quand nous y sommes presque.

    Toutes les ressources , planifiées contrôlées, au non de la science va permettre de gérer la planète et ses habitants.

    Reste comment, la mise en place et les conséquences de ce changement vont affecter les populations au niveau financier économique social et surtout politique car il semblerait que la direction prise ne soit de loin pas en faveur des gens en général mais seulement d’une minorité non élue qui s’arroge tous les droits et s’emparent des richesses sous prétexte que nous sommes trop idiots ; ignorants de LA -LEUR SCIENCE qui est devenue comme au temps de l’URSS la seule valeur qui selon eux permettra de sortir du chaos et donc n’est pas discutable.

    J'aime

  2. Avec ces économistes c’est toujours la même chose, on nous explique 6 mois après ce qui c’était produit.
    Les taux d’interets vont montés mais la tech va suivre ainsi que le russell 2000 et ensuite vous avec la BCE qui a pas encore commencé son programme infini QE peur des représailles; donc 6 mois de bulles et un retour deflation en Q3 2021.
    En ce qui concerne Michael Burry; il est short Tesla mais vu les stimulus checks et le plan infini fiscal américain il y a encore de l’air dans la bulle.
    Tout dépend des capitaux européens comme dans les années 30 ils ont voulus baissés les taux en 27 et ils l’ont payés très cher à la suite.

    La bulle va continuer à monté et monté même si les taux augmentent car en net c’est la même chose.

    Le plus inquiétant dans tous cela c’est le social qui va péter; les Grantham sont coincés dans value vs growth but who cares when the government is going to default anyway either by currency devaluation or cbdc and never repaying any principal on the loan.What concerns me are the pensions and these are gonna blow up big time TINA !!!!

    J'aime

    1. Désolé mais le Bitcoin m’emmerde. C’est pour les simplets. Meme si j’en ai conseillé l’acquisistion. Il était facile d’anticiper la connerie . Je n’ai aucun merite.

      Et quoi que vous en disiez, ce texe de El Erian ne mérite pas d’être dévalorisé mais étudié afin de voir ce qu’il comporte de fort et ce qu’il comporte de faible.

      Tout texte de ce genre apporte matière à reflexion et non à sarcasme.

      J'aime

      1. Avec ces économistes c’est toujours la même chose, on nous explique 6 mois après ce qui c’était produit.
        Les taux d’interets vont montés mais la tech va suivre ainsi que le russell 2000 et ensuite vous avec la BCE qui a pas encore commencé son programme infini QE peur des représailles; donc 6 mois de bulles et un retour deflation en Q3 2021.
        En ce qui concerne Michalel Burry; il est short Tesla mais vu les stimulus checks et le plan infini fiscal américain il y a encore de l’air dans la bulle.
        Tout dépend des capitaux européens comme dans les années 30 ils ont voulus baissés les taux en 27 et ils l’ont payés très cher à la suite

        Aimé par 1 personne

      2. Vous avez raison, Monsieur Bertez, cet interview de El Rian est utile car ce Monsieur n’est pas idéologue, mais pragmatique et logique. Je vous remercie donc de nous avoir partagé cette lecture.

        Sur le BTC, perso, je suis sorti le 02 janvier lors de son 1er plongeon de la nouvelle année. Je l’ai vu plonger de 33 000 à 32 000 en qq secondes, mon sang n’a fait qu’un tour j’ai soldé 95% de mes avoirs. Mon sentiment est qu’il était temps avant que la psychologie collective n’en prenne conscience. Inutile de préciser que la semaine est qui a suivi, j’ai enragé… Mais quand il a plongé de 42 000 à 30 000 alors là oui j’ai bien compris que c’était cuit. D’autant que les régulateurs vont t le juguler. Il reste encore de la place pour trader sur la volatilité. Mais de toute façon, ce véhicule dhypzr spéculation a tout donné entre l’année de sa création et 2017… depuis, ça n’est intéressant que pour mes retardataires. TESLA a superficie BTC en 2020 et de loin. Ainsi que nombre d’autres actions, chez les Pharma notamment. J’ai fait des jour ees à 7 et 8 000 euros en debit d’année. Bref… Tout ceci illistre bien à quel point les « facilités » monétaires, financières et digitales sont en train de conduire l’humanité à sa perte !!!

        J'aime

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